Podcast: stop being mean to yourself about productivity with anne janzer
hosted by Rachelle Ramirez
In this episode of the Write Anyway podcast, book coach and author Anne Janzer discusses how writers can stop beating themselves up about productivity. She shares insights from her experience coaching writers and authoring books like The Writer's Process and The Writer's Voice.
Key Discussion Points
Why writers struggle with productivity expectations
The difference between process issues and personal barriers
How to maintain a sustainable writing practice
Dealing with perfectionism and fear in writing
When to persist with or let go of a project
The importance of focusing on process over output
Notable Quotes
"Every writer knocks themselves around about their productivity." — Anne Janzer
"Perfectionism is often fear in disguise looking really productive and important." — Anne Janzer
"Nothing is wasted in writing." — Anne Janzer
Resources Mentioned
Books
John Steinbeck's Working Days: The Journals of The Grapes of Wrath
Connect With Pages & Platforms
Subscribe to the Write Anyway newsletter
Some links are affiliate links, we get a small commission when you purchase, but you don't pay more.
transcript
Anne Hawley: Hello and welcome to the Write Anyway podcast from Pages & Platforms and the Happily Ever Author Club. In today's episode, Rachelle Ramirez talks with book coach and author Anne Janzer about how to stop beating ourselves up when our writing time isn't as productive as we'd like. Anne Janzer is the author of multiple books, including The Writer's Process and The Writer's Voice, both favorites of ours here at Pages & Platforms.
Now on with the interview.
Rachelle Ramirez: Hello Anne. How are you?
Anne Janzer: I am fine, Rachelle, it's great to talk to you again.
Rachelle Ramirez: Hello everybody. I am here with Anne Janzer. She is a nonfiction book coach and author of one of my absolute favorite books on writing, which is The Writer's Process: Getting Your Brain in Gear. This book is fabulous. It is the one that made me thought okay, when I write a nonfiction book, when I finish one, I'm going to hire Anne to help me to edit this book. Because it was, I just absolutely loved it. It was so, so informative, which is one of the big reasons why I invited you on today because as an editor, I have a lot of clients who are saying that, you know, they're wanting to be productive, they want to be more productive.
This process is taking too long and they're really beating themselves up. And I thought Anne's the one to ask about that. So what do you say when you're a book coach and you have a writer who's really knocking themselves around about their productivity, what are some of the things that come to mind for you?
Anne Janzer: Yeah, so, okay. Every writer knocks themselves around about their productivity, so let's just put that out there. I don't know any who are just like, no, I'm killing it. This is the best I could be. So. When I work with nonfiction authors now I get the inside view into a lot of them. And when people are really upset about productivity, it tends to be one of two things, process or personal, right?
So, so I think that's how we divide it up. And so I usually start with the process part that if we think about it, if we've been writing for a while and we reflect, we know what works for us, right? We know, and by process I mean a repeatable, dependable path to writing. I don't mean sitting and waiting for a download from the writing gods, right?
That's not a process. That's just a gift. And when it comes, great. But if a process is let's you do something with it and the process actually makes it more likely to happen. But a process is a repeatable thing to, to break the writing into its different components and do the next thing that you need to do, and.
We all have different site variations on it. And say, when I'm writing a nonfiction book, that's gonna be a really different process probably than if I'm trying to write a poem so that I might alter and adjust and figure out my process. But I know what works well for me and you know what works well for you.
And in most cases, my coaching clients know what works for them. They just simply get impatient and want to do this faster. You know, they like. You know, but I wanna write a chapter a week so you know, I'm gonna do this instead. I'm gonna abandon everything that I know works, which seems slow and tedious, but sustainable and try to just, you know, guts my way through it.
I know, did you see this too in your coaching, Rachelle, that people just getting patient and they wanna just, you know, skip ahead to the writing part, skip ahead to the done part, right.
Rachelle Ramirez: Absolutely. Even those who are doing, say something like 20 books to 50 k where they're putting out you know, three books a year. Those who are putting out a book a year, those who are putting out a book every decade, it does not matter how fast they're writing, they're always thinking, this should be going faster, this should be going faster.
Anne Janzer: Exactly. And so when we try to go faster, too often, we abandon the things that we know work. And I, you know, I can't help but think of the old tortoise and the hare parable. You know, they start the race and the hare. int the parable is just too cocky and takes a nap. But in the case of a writer, I think the hare abandons what they know and they're like, I can just gut through this book really fast.
And they get lost. You know, they don't even find the finish line and it takes 'em a long time because they're wandering all over the place. This is what I find. So what does this look like? For some people it's getting stuck in getting started, you know, if you're used to writing short form things. I have clients who are just, they can whip out op-eds and articles at the drop of a hat, but asked to do a book chapter it's like, woo. You know, I don't know. 'cause it's a different thing and they haven't figured out that most of their process applies. Right. Sometimes it's getting started.
A book is different. I have to have a perfect introduction before I go on and just shoot me about the introduction. Right.
Rachelle Ramirez: That a lot. I have to get this first chapter right. I have to get this first page right, and they'll do that one over
Anne Janzer: And over. Exactly. And sometimes it's forgetting, you know, just forgetting what works. 'cause it seems like a book is different. So I had a client who's in the awkward revision phase of her book.
She's got the whole first draft and now she has to go back and work her way through it. And it seems different to her than things she's done before. And she was struggling and then she said, oh, I forgot that the way I really like to write is to print something out and sit in paper and pencil and do the revision That way it's like, there you go.
You know? You gotta remember what works for you and bring it in even if you're doing something that's a little bit new. So. I said half the time it's process and half the time it's personal. So like your client who has to get that first chapter right, sometimes that isn't a process problem, it's something deeper, right?
So people will come to me saying, you know, I'm just, I'm feeling terrible about myself because of my procrastination. And I wanna say, you know, well first of all, let's, in, let's interrogate. Rather than procrastinate, let's interrogate. ' cause sometimes it's telling us something really useful that we have to figure out before we go on, right?
So that having to get the first chapter right, when you say, well, what's really going on? Why does it have to be right? Why can't you come back to it later? And you get a lot of really interesting questions if someone's being open enough with you and with themselves. It's like, what if I'm wrong?
What if I don't write well? What if people are gonna think this is stupid? Right? Sometimes there, there's imposter questions. It is, you know, perfectionism is often fear in disguise looking really productive and important. But it's fear. So we have to bring those things out.
And sometimes it's just like, well, I'm really not sure how I'm gonna deal with this problem in the book. It's like, okay, let's look at this problem. If it's fear, it's like, okay, write down all of those fears and let's talk 'em through. Someone's not gonna like the book, I guarantee to you that's true. Not everyone's gonna like your book, but will the people that you really wanna serve with it like it, right? Is it going to serve people? So shining a really strong search light on those fears can really help with the personal parts. And then once you've done that, I feel like process is the path out .
Then it's like, okay, what's the next single thing that you should do on this? Maybe we have to detour the process and you need to do some more free writing to figure out how this is gonna address this issue. I mean, maybe we have to dig a little deeper. But process is the path out, once you've taken a look at those personal things. Can I just share a quote from John Steinbeck? He wrote journals as he drafted and someone published the journals in a book called Working Days the Journals of The Grapes of Wrath.
And there was a day about halfway through, and he's already a well-known author where he writes in his journal, "I'm not a writer, I've been fooling myself and other people. I wish I were. This success will ruin me, sure as hell. It probably won't last, and that will be all right."
So he has this moment of despair, imposter syndrome. And then, but this is where I say, processes the path out. He says, I'll try to go on with work now. Just a stint every day does it. I keep forgetting.
Rachelle Ramirez: Yeah.
Anne Janzer: I keep forgetting. You know, I keep forgetting that the process is to make yourself sit down, look at the outline, you write the next bit .
This is just why I am such a fan of process. It's how we shut off the judgy mind. We stop looking at the output and we focus on the process, right? 'Cause when we look at the output, we can get scared, we can get judgy, we can be, this is no good, but it's like, well, the, but the next step in my process is this and I trust my future self, then I'm going to revise it.
I trust my process that it will be better before it goes out in the world. So, you know, this is again, why I'm just such a fan of understanding and owning and examining your writing process.
Rachelle Ramirez: I think a lot of times that when I'm working with somebody, they have a difficulty separating process and personal. To them,. It's so very much the same thing, and those get intertwined. Do you often find that you need to walk somebody through separating those two?
Anne Janzer: Yeah, I think this is the sense of, that writing has to be, you know, if it's not inspired, if it's not being driven from the internal creative forces then it's not real. And every writer will tell you that's not the case. That's kind of a myth of writing. So yeah, I think when we separate it from the personal, we really have to break it down to its phases. It's like, well, this phase is I'm going to try to incubate ideas. I'm going to do some free writing and do a sort of what I call inner research. Everything I think about this it's useful to have these things tied to activities.
You know, I feel like. The action can lead our beliefs, right? Action. So if we can make ourselves, I'm just going to free write on this. Look, I'm writing on the topic. I'm going to research on this. Look, I'm doing something. If you give yourself the next thing to do and you're the drafting phases, I'm going to sit down and write maybe just one paragraph and maybe that will take me somewhere.
You focus on the action. It separates it out a little bit. As much as writing is something that comes from us and it's a human connection this is so important in the world of AI to me, that writing is a human connection. Right? Yet it's not us exactly on the page. It's, it becomes its own work.
And we have to get there again through the steps. You don't look at a sculptor, you know, I don't know, I don't know what sculptors do, but I'm sure that they have multiple steps. They do. Right? You know, the craft, there is a craft to writing. It's art and it's craft. And when we lean on the craft, it gets us through and it inspires that more artistic parts of ourselves to it. So yeah.
Rachelle Ramirez: I'm really on board with that. A lot of times I find that when somebody is talking specifically about the personal pieces, that we do a brief, let's walk through that and identify as that's personal, that's separate. You can still sit down and write one sentence a day, or you
Anne Janzer: Yes.
Rachelle Ramirez: down with your notes for five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
A lot of times it's helpful to talk through what is the next best step.
Anne Janzer: Yes.
Rachelle Ramirez: you need a writing buddy for that. Maybe you need somebody an a book coach. Maybe you need an editor. Maybe you need a critique group. But having somebody that can help walk you through. Okay. But what's the next step can be really helpful.
Anne Janzer: Yes, absolutely. Because when you look at the whole project of a book, if we're talking about books, it seems enormous and it is big. But to look at just the next step. My dad used to take me skiing and we'd stand at the top of the big slope. It looks really scary. He's like, A mountain is just a series of hills we're gonna ski to there.
I'm like, okay, I could ski to there. I could ski to there, I could ski to the next point. And that's how I work my way down. And a book is very similar. What's the next step? The other thing I find really useful because the personal keeps us self-involved, right? Think about the reader or readers that you really want to serve.
Now with nonfiction, that's sometimes easier because we're writing for a specific kind of reader. But that's true with genre fiction as well. That's true with poetry. Who are the people that this is just gonna resonate with, right? So let's think about them and their needs instead of us and our needs.
Sometimes that helps us out of the personal. Is someone gonna hate the book? What if somebody doesn't like it? Yeah, someone's not gonna like it, but how can I serve that person? What if they're delighted with it? That helps us also out of our own, out of our own way. You know, we get in our own way so, so often.
Sometimes though, to be fair, procrastination is telling us that we've fallen out of love with a project or that the project has taken a turn that we're not really excited about. That's why I say we should interrogate procrastination. 'cause sometimes they'll come out and like, I find this book kind of boring.
Okay. That's a really good thing to know. If it's boring, let's step back and think about what's another angle. So, you know, there's a lot to be, a lot to explore in this, isn't there?
Rachelle Ramirez: What do you think about somebody who might say, okay, I've fallen out of love with this project and. I really don't want to do this from another angle, and yet I have more to do. I maybe have a deadline for an editor or I've taken this so far. So far I'm three quarters of the way finished. I've committed to finishing it for some other reason. What do you say to, to those folks?
Anne Janzer: So I think you have to look at what's the depth of the commitment and not only the commitment to the deadline, but the commitment to supporting the thing when it's done. So, I mean, if you've committed to an article and you've fallen outta love with it, write the article, you know, I mean, it's an article, right?
Or, you know, a blog post or something. Meet your commitment. But if you have committed to a book and you're just like, no, I just, I can't even, because you, the book is like a child. It's gonna be with you right? For a while. I think you need to readjust. I firmly believe, Rachelle, that in writing, nothing is wasted.
This idea that we have to, oh, but I put work into it. So it has to go out one way. It's nothing is wasted. If you're partway through a project you spin out a short story or you do some blogs from it, if nothing else, you have learned and worked on your craft in the process. And there's a real art to knowing when it's wise to quit something and you should quit before it's a total burning disaster, when it's clear, it's like there's something better I could be doing with my time than this.
Rachelle Ramirez: Be a very important key piece to say, it's not that I'm abandoning this project. It's not that I've failed to finish, but my energy, my writing can be better used elsewhere.
Anne Janzer: exactly. Because everything is a trade off. Everything has an opportunity costs, and if you put something aside. And you know, you may come back later and say, huh, you know, there's a germ of something in here. You may end up using it, but it is, it certainly stayed with you, the work that you've done.
So I think we need to give up on this sense of it's wasted. You didn't waste you, you learned something, you took something from it. You grew your skills. And you should not be embarrassed about stopping, if there's something better that you want or something really calling to you to spend your time on.
This is your life. This is your creative energy. You need to put it where you need to do, so you gotta balance. I mean, there's balancing of things but I think knowing when to quit or to pivot or just to put something aside for a while to incubate or sit on a back burner is wise.
I mean, there are actually projects that I kind of guts through that I now think, yeah, that was a distraction. I wish I'd actually been off on this other path. I kind of knew at one, I'm not that excited, but it's not that long. I guess I can do it, you know? Yeah. There's an opportunity cost of things.
Rachelle Ramirez: It's interesting that you're saying that there's some regret there about things that you actually finished.
Anne Janzer: Yes. That.
Rachelle Ramirez: ever heard anybody share a regret from something they've finished. I wish I hadn't spent my time working on that. You might be the first person I've heard
Anne Janzer: Yeah, there you go. It's not like total regret, but it wasn't the best choice. It took me off where I wanted to be going. And when you write a, a book, you know, it is clear if it's like there's something that I just don't feel like promoting, it's like, okay, that's a sign I'm not excited about promoting this thing.
I think that's a real tell that it's like, okay, then probably this was not the thing I probably should have spent my time on. I mean, I again learned from it, you know, it wasn't a waste. Nothing is wasted. But in retrospect, there were other things that I wish I had been doing at that time.
Rachelle Ramirez: You have any, do you have a tip before we go about how to focus in, how to really redirect yourself to get back into the process? Get out of the personal as much as you can to just get out of the fear. What's something that you can do to really focus back in on process? I often have writers go to a brand new place or go to a familiar coffee shop where maybe their story was inspired. Something space
Anne Janzer: Yes.
Rachelle Ramirez: right in there. I don't, do you have any suggestions
Anne Janzer: I love changing space. Find someone who is kind of related to talk to about it too. I mean, related, not related to you, related to the idea or the project. Talking with other writers can be really useful. An exercise I like to do, and again, maybe this plays a little bit more non-fiction than fiction, is to write myself a letter from the reader's perspective.
So that's like to put yourself in the reader's mind about the topic. So again, this might work with memoir, this might work with nonfiction a little bit more than fiction. But it's like, what do you wanna know? What do you think about this topic? How are you gonna be thinking? What would you look for in a book?
So it just completely shifts your head out of, what do I wanna say about this to what will really serve someone else about this? And sometimes this. Entirely changes the format or the approach to the book. That's kind of a nice shift. But also it focuses you on, let me make sure that I'm meeting those needs.
So what do I need to do that? To think about do I need to add some research to my process or you know, sometimes this prevents you from going down long winding roads that the reader isn't gonna care about. Two. So again, this is a little bit less about process, more about structure, I suppose.
Rachelle Ramirez: Yeah, absolutely love that idea. And I often suggest people focus on one single reader,
Anne Janzer: Yeah.
Rachelle Ramirez: ideal reader. And what do they want? What do I wanna say to her or him or them?
Anne Janzer: Yes.
Rachelle Ramirez: is it that that one reader could get excited about and. Oftentimes that does help get somebody out of a funk, at least for a day or a week or so
Anne Janzer: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Rachelle Ramirez: And you do the process again, I'm assuming, right.
Anne Janzer: Yeah. Yeah. But so the other point to get to is to take for a moment your eyes off of that calendar deadline thing that you set and to just say, i'm committing to, you know, doing this phase for this much, for this many days and just work on it like that as opposed to focusing on the output.
'cause the focus on the output can really make us feel discouraged. It's like, oh, this is taking so long, so if I multiply out, I won't have a draft until, that's not useful math to do. It's like. Writing a book is like hiking on a trail. Some bits are steep and uphill and you're gonna go slowly, some bits you're gonna, you get a burst of energy, you take a snack and there's like, boom.
I, you know, so that, that's what writing a book is like. So if you focus on the output, you're completely like freaking out the whole time. You're either making unrealistic deadlines 'cause you're going really fast or you're just despairing 'cause you're slow. Whereas if you focus on the process, I got out there and I was hiking for 30 minutes and this is how far I got.
That's fine. This is what I did is if I keep doing this, I'm gonna reach the end of the trail. That's really useful.
Rachelle Ramirez: Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for meeting with me today and for coming on is the best place for people to find out more about you, your books, and your book. Coaching annejanzer.com
Anne Janzer: That is it. annejanzer.com and there's a silent E on the Anne, so.
Rachelle Ramirez: Alright. "Anne With an E," just like the series.
Anne Janzer: Exactly.
Rachelle Ramirez: Alright. All right. Well, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed talking to you again.
Anne Janzer: Oh, as always, Rachelle, It's a pleasure.
Anne Hawley: If you'd like a weekly dose of writing insight and mindset and marketing tips in your inbox, subscribe to the write anyway newsletter at pagesandplatforms.com/subscribe
And that's it for this episode of the Write Anyway Podcast. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.