Podcast: Overcoming ADHD Writing Challenges with Nicole Bross
hosted by rachelle ramirez
In this episode of the Write Anyway podcast, certified book coach and editor Nicole Bross discusses strategies and tools for neurodivergent authors. Nicole is the author of 'A Novel Approach: Strategies for ADHD Writers,' a guide aimed at helping neurodiverse authors overcome challenges like lack of motivation and disorganization. She emphasizes understanding the root causes of these issues, using various techniques such as changing work environments, visual organization, and finding the right accountability partners. Nicole also advocates for pre-emptive outlining to break down larger tasks into manageable ones, thereby reducing the feeling of overwhelm. The episode offers actionable insights and tips for both ADHD and non-ADHD writers.
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transcript
Anne Hawley: Hello and welcome to the Write Anyway podcast from pages and platforms and the happily Ever Author Club. In today's episode, Rachelle talks with certified book coach and editor Nicole Bross about strategies and tools she's developed for herself as a neurodivergent author. Nicole is the author of A Novel Approach: Strategies for ADHD Writers.
A writing guide for Neurodiverse authors whose A DHD is getting in the way of finishing their books. Let's listen in.
Rachelle Ramirez: Hi Nicole. How are you?
Nicole Bross: I am good. How are you?
Rachelle Ramirez: Good. I'm pretty excited to be talking to another ADHD writer today, so, hopefully that'll go well and we won't steer people off into a number of tangents.
Nicole Bross: Yeah. It, it tends to happen, doesn't it?
Rachelle Ramirez: It does. So one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is because you, you have a book that's coming out and one of the things that you focus on is, let's say, the ADHD writer's Challenge, with the problem they might present would be, I'm feeling unmotivated to write. What should I do?
Nicole Bross: yeah. That's a huge thing.
Rachelle Ramirez: Do you have any advice for somebody who's like, oh my gosh, this, I'm just feeling unmotivated.
Nicole Bross: One of the biggest points of advice, I would say is to really dig into where that lack of motivation comes from. Is it because you know, you're bored with your book, you're bored with your story? Is it because you don't really like the act of sitting down and writing at the moment? Are you not motivated because you have another project in mind that you want to be doing instead?
So, digging into the kind of, the background of it is really important in, you know, getting that information and then you know how to fix it so that you will become motivated again.
Rachelle Ramirez: Okay. And so they can identify what the challenge is in particular, then they can work specifically on that. And what are the kinds of things that you suggest writers do to sort of prop all that up? What are some of the tips, tricks that you have for helping people get motivated to write?
Nicole Bross: Well, it depends again, on what that issue is. So, for example, if you're bored with the story that you're writing you might wanna go back and look at your outline again. You know, are the scenes that you're working on right now not something that you're really interested in? And if so, why? And in some respect, that boredom can actually be a benefit.
I think that there are kind of hidden benefits to ADHD, and so if you're bored with your story, it might mean that you need to look at, you know, doing something different, making things more complicated, adding a twist in there. So that can actually be really advantageous. If you're bored with the act of like sitting down and writing, you can change it up by doing different things.
You know, you can work in a different place than where you normally work. You know, if you find your office or whatever, it just isn't giving you much inspiration, you know, go to the library, go to a cafe, even sit in a different place in your house, you know, sit at the kitchen table instead. See what that does.
You can try handwriting instead of typing, or you can try voice dictating into a voice memo and then transcribing that later. So yeah, both of those, depending on what the issue is in the first place can, can really help kind of get you moving again.
Rachelle Ramirez: One of the things that I think you talk about in the book is about accountability and there being two different kinds of accountability. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Nicole Bross: Yeah, so there's internal accountability, which is basically promises that you make to yourself. So you tell yourself, you know, I'm gonna write today, or I'm gonna finish this book by September, or whatever. And so, you know, you're, you're making a commitment to yourself, and those can be really difficult for people with ADHD because of all of the challenges with things like distraction and disorganization.
Sometimes it's easy, even forgetfulness to let those slip by, and then you feel really down on yourself. Because, you know, you feel like you failed yourself. The other one is external motivation, which is when you make a promise to somebody else. And that might be something like an accountability partner, for example, somebody that you match up with, or an accountability group where you make commitments to each other to get things done.
And that can be a lot more motivating for people with ADHD, and I think, anybody as well, because we tend to value promises to others more highly than we value promises to yourself. So if you know that somebody is counting on you to read your 10 pages on Friday, you're gonna sit down and do it because you don't wanna let them down.
Rachelle Ramirez: Do you have any other suggestions for external accountability, what that might look like?
Nicole Bross: Besides having like a dedicated accountability partner, you can do something like body doubling, which is where you just decide to meet up with somebody and work together, and you don't even have to be working on the same thing. One of you might be writing and the other one might be, you know, doing, I don't know, homework and or assignment or making, you know, their meal plan for the week.
But the point is that you're working side by side and again. If you're with somebody else that is sitting down and doing their work and focusing, you look at them and you go like, I can do that too. You know? You don't want them to feel like you're not kind of meeting their energy, I guess, or meeting their vibes.
Rachelle Ramirez: Any other ideas for creating external accountability?
Nicole Bross: Those are the main three. You can do things like you know, word count tracking, for example, setting goals like that, that tends to kind of, sit on both sides because it is, you know, also a promise to yourself, but it's also an external motivator, something that you're working toward.
Rachelle Ramirez: Sometimes I suggest that people hire a developmental editor or a book coach for that. I mean, sometimes the external accountability needs to be professional. So you were talking about having like a writing partner or a writing buddy. A lot of people say they have a challenge with finding the right person or the right people.
Do you have any suggestions for, you know, kind of creating that partnership?
Nicole Bross: Yeah, absolutely. It depends a little bit on, first of all, how you want to meet or match up. If it's important that you work together in person, then obviously you're gonna look to your local writing community. A lot of people find it helpful to match with somebody who's working in the same genre or the same age category, so that it's easier to bounce ideas off each other if that's a part of your accountability process.
Otherwise, I mean, online the world is your oyster. There are a zillion different places where you can find people to match up with as far as accountability goes, whether or not you decide to match with somebody that has ADHD as well, is a personal, decision that you have to make. Some people really like it because you understand each other's challenges and issues and you can kind of support each other in that way.
Other people don't find it's as important. And I guess it's important to know that, you know, you never have to disclose your neurodiversity to anybody if you don't want to, but if you felt like you were uncomfortable with your accountability partners sharing that, if it felt like something. You know, that wouldn't make you feel good or that you wouldn't understand, I would say maybe that's not the best partner for you.
Rachelle Ramirez: Yeah. Yeah. Any suggestions for how to screen for a good partner?
Nicole Bross: A lot of it is just like it's vibes, honestly. You know, you get that feeling if you think you're a good match. Obviously it depends on what's important to you. Again, whether it's availability, the type of accountability too is important. So if you you know, if you're planning on sharing pages with each other, you both obviously have to be comfortable with that.
Not everybody likes to share their work before they've been through some rounds of edits and they just, you know, more. More wanna make promises to each other to get the work done. So finding somebody who has similar goals to you and ideally someone who's kind of writing in the same area or genre can be a good first couple steps to finding a good partner.
Rachelle Ramirez: Okay. And so the things that, let me, just to clarify the things that you might do with a writing partner might be exchanging pages and discussing them. What else, what else might you do with them?
Nicole Bross: If you don't wanna exchange pages, then you can just say, you know, every week we're gonna write 10 pages and we're gonna check in with each other and see how we're doing. You can use those sessions too. You can either work together and, you know, make writing dates basically either online or in person.
And you can just kind of support each other. You know, if you're, if your goal is 10 pages a week or whatever by Friday and it's Thursday, and you know. You're struggling, you have somebody to talk to about it and maybe they can offer some suggestions. Same thing with like brainstorming. If you're stuck on a plot point, for example, your accountability partner can be a good resource for working through that.
So because you know you have somebody in your corner it can, it can make the process of writing easier.
Rachelle Ramirez: Yeah. And you don't have to meet in person, right? You meet online.
Nicole Bross: All of my writing accountability sessions are online. Yeah.
Rachelle Ramirez: Can you walk me through what an accountability session might look like for you?
Nicole Bross: So what I like to do, and I run free online writing sessions twice a month. What we do is we have a quick check-in to start. So everybody introduces themselves. You say a little bit about what you're writing and what your goal is. And then we like to do two 45 minute sprints. Everybody turns their cameras and mics off.
We write for 45 minutes. We have a short check-in in the middle where we say, you know, how things are going, do we have any challenges that have come up? And then we do another 45 minutes and then another quick check-in at the end to see if people have met their goals, how they're feeling. Again, if somebody wants to ask a question or get support from the other members of the group, then you can do that.
And then we sign off Until next time.
You sign up through Eventbrite, but the link is on my website. And anybody is welcome no matter what type of writing you're doing, no matter your experience level. It's even like writing adjacent things. Sometimes people will come and they'll be working on their query letter, for example, or they'll be doing revisions or, you know, writing their next email newsletter.
As long as it's kind of in the sphere of writing anyone can come.
Rachelle Ramirez: Is there anything else that say you find is a big challenge when an ADHD writer comes to you and says, I'm feeling unmotivated. Is there anything else that you would wanna share with them?
Nicole Bross: Again, the first thing would just be in, to dig into why and figure out what, what's behind that lack of motivation. And once we know that, then we can start moving forward with addressing it. Yeah.
Rachelle Ramirez: Yeah. A lot of times when I'm working with ADHD writer, the Challenge is they're feeling overwhelmed. So what they're calling being unmotivated isn't necessarily a, their lack of motivation to write, but their feeling of overwhelm and wanting to avoid it. So, that's a challenge that I see a lot in general and that's often lacking because, and correct me if, if I'm wrong here that the solution to that would be maybe finding either you, you lack skills that you need, and there are certain skills that you can go and research and learn for yourself, or finding a, a developmental editor or a writing group that can help walk you through it. Sometimes the overwhelm isn't just an emotional problem, I'm assuming, but also a, a challenge with just lack of know-how.
Nicole Bross: Sure. Yeah. And another issue that I also see often with overwhelm is a lack of organization. So they can't see, you know, how everything is supposed to come together. It's too scattered. And so one of the big things that I recommend when it comes to overwhelm is looking at your organization. You know, do you have an outline written?
Do you have all of your scenes kind of at least roughly mapped out so that you can break down the idea of like writing a book into something smaller, like writing a chapter or writing a scene. And when you can give, you know, smaller kind of mini goals, then it can make it easier to move forward because you're only doing one little thing at a time.
Rachelle Ramirez: So one of the things that they could do, if disorganization is the challenge, would be to write an outline so they can see their full story on say, one, two or three pages. It's compact, here's what I have, and then any other suggestions on that
Nicole Bross: You can do it in a visual way too. Like, I really like the method where you write everything out, you know, on a post-it notes or cue cards or something, and then put them up on the wall. Especially if you're kind of a visual learner which a lot of people with ADHD are. And so then you can literally see the whole thing all in one piece at once and even, you know, move those pieces around physically.
You know, try this scene out over here, or maybe this, you know, plot point. Works better over there. And that can really help too with that feeling of overwhelm. 'cause now you see it in all its individual smaller pieces.
Rachelle Ramirez: And those suggestions sound like something you would do sort of in the editing phase, like you're in your second draft and that sort of thing. Do you, do you see too many challenges with ADHD writers in that initial drafting phase, or does that seem to be like, I'm putting the, my heart and soul in it.
I'm getting this story down and it's only say when they think they finished the draft, that they're like, oh no, now they have to put this in story form. In story order, or do you see a challenge generally
Nicole Bross: I actually find it's more beneficial to do that outlining before you ever start, because a lot of people with ADHD have problems starting big projects or even just starting small projects at all because they blow it up into a bigger thing in their minds. Like I always find the idea of like cleaning the bathroom so overwhelming, but it's four small parts, you know, clean the sink, clean the toilet, clean the mirrors, sweep the floor.
And so, the outline when it comes to writing, I think especially if you're having problems getting started because you don't know how to, you know, write a book getting that outline sorted out ahead of time can be even more beneficial.
It's also beneficial when you do it after you've written the first draft, especially if you've done more of like a discovery writing or a pantsing- type method. And then it helps to piece all of those parts together. That's not how I write myself. Like I absolutely need to have the outline completely established before I start writing.
Rachelle Ramirez: So that would be what we would call a plotter, right? And for the, for the pantsers, the ones who wanna write towards their story and then figure out the outline, are there any suggestions that you have for for them?
Nicole Bross: Yeah, I think like, again, that's where some of the overwhelm comes in. I think if you're a pantser, then if you're not really feeling it in the scene that you're working on right now, just jump to something else. Because again, you're gonna be putting all those pieces together later. So you know, if you're really excited about the big romantic scene between your two main characters or the big, you know, fight scene, the war between two factions or whatever, write that, if that's what you're really excited about, and then go back to what you're working on at another time. Maybe when you find it more interesting.
Rachelle Ramirez: And it could be that the part that you find not very interesting might be something you can just eliminate
Nicole Bross: Yeah,
Rachelle Ramirez: One of the things that I like about having an outline, and I will generally be a pantser initially, and then when I start getting kind of stuck and slowed down, then I'll go in and write my outline.
Okay, I'm heading towards this. How am I gonna get there? But what I like, as somebody with ADHD, probably this is the reason, is that I like to go in and take my outline and say, okay, well what's my assignment for today? Because i've been trained for so many years to try to carefully meet the expectations of others, right?
So going in and saying, okay, what's my assignment for today, even though I assigned it myself, seems to help me so I can look at in there and maybe. If color coded my outline or something. So red is not written orange needs it needs an edit. And green is, you know, Hey, I think this is good. This is publish ready.
Nicole Bross: Oh, interesting.
Rachelle Ramirez: Which never, I mean, let's just say you have that as a visual. Then taking those assignments, those what's red, what's still red, what's still red? Sometimes helps me just say, okay, what's next? Because like you said, that sense of overwhelm can just be shut down and I don't wanna work on
Nicole Bross: absolutely. And that's. I've, like, I love to hear all the different ways that people outline and plan their projects because everybody's different. So yeah, definitely having it organized in that way would definitely be helpful. I've never tried that before, but I think that's that's pretty cool.
Rachelle Ramirez: I'm always looking for ways to, how can I break this crap down smaller like this? If you, if you look at the whole, oh my gosh, I got all these chapters. First of all, like you said, organize them into one place. Get all your stuff together. I love Scrivener
Nicole Bross: Oh, love it.
Rachelle Ramirez: about you, but. I write in Google Docs because it's easier to manage.
And then I transfer all my, okay, I've written this piece, I've put it in Scribner in order, so that I can see everything down the left side of my screen. I have all these things where something missing. I like to do that to just find ways to organize the mass of material that, that I can accumulate.
Nicole Bross: I do the opposite to you actually. I write the first draft in Scrivener, and then once the first draft is done, I move it over into Word to do my revisions so that I can have it in one complete document instead of different you know, scenes or chapters.
Rachelle Ramirez: That's really interesting. I think I might do both. I might be moving back and forth. But one challenge with that is you gotta keep them both updated, right? So what you do in one, you need to, you need to correct on the other. But initially when I'm putting my story together, I really like to have it in Scribner where I can see the chunks.
Which chunks do I still have missing? What have I written? You know, um mm-hmm. Then I can see clearly on the left side of the screen, what am I repeating? Because that's a big thing. Like a lot of times I'll talk to ADHD writers who have written pretty much the same scene three times.
Right. You know, so, I, I've been guilty of that too, like, but I really want this to happen. Well, it already happened.
Nicole Bross: I think one of the reasons why people are so resistant to doing an outline is because they feel it stifles their creativity. But it's like you said, you know, you can update them as you go along. If you find that as you're writing, you know, something better comes to mind, you can go into your outline and change it.
It's not something that's completely set in stone. I think of them as like living documents. That change and update, I find when I look at my original outlines for my first draft of the story compared to my final draft, they're often like so completely different.
Rachelle Ramirez: Different stories, even maybe different story types.
Well, thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with me today. I really appreciate it, and I hope this is gonna be helpful to some ADHD writers out there, or even people who don't have ADHD who are feeling like maybe they're unmotivated or overwhelmed and
Nicole Bross: Yeah. I hope so too. Thank you so much for having me on.
Rachelle Ramirez: Alright, thanks.
Anne Hawley: Nicole's book, A Novel Approach, is available everywhere books are sold. For more information, visit her website, manuscriptalchemy.com.
And if you'd like a weekly dose of writing insight and mindset and marketing tips in your inbox, subscribe to the Write Anyway Newsletter at pagesandplatforms.com/subscribe.
And that's it for this episode of the Write anyway podcast. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.