Podcast: Demolish Your Comfort Zones With Art Turock
hosted by SUE CAMPBELL
Why does success elude you even when you're putting in the time and effort? The brutal truth: You're choosing short-term comfort over long-term results. In this game-changing episode, Sue Campbell interviews Art Turock, the "Comfort Zone Demolition Expert," about why stepping outside your comfort zone isn't enough—you need to demolish it entirely. Art is a longtime executive coach for Fortune 500 companies and author of the new book Demolish Your Comfort Zones: Six Unconventional Practices to Crush Your Hidden Limitations. At age 55, he took up sprinting and won silver and bronze medals at the USA Track and Field Masters Championship. His quote about commitment vs. interest appeared on Starbucks cups nationwide.
What You'll Learn
The crucial difference between holding people accountable vs. inviting accountability
Why "interest" will sabotage your writing dreams (and how commitment changes everything)
The "colossal deception" that keeps writers stuck in self-limiting patterns Art's proven system for overcoming fear of rejection (that landed him 125+ Fortune 500 speaking gigs)
How to identify the hidden "short-term payoffs" that derail your long-term goals
The identity shift that transforms aspiring writers into published authors
Key Quotes
"Comfort kills more dreams than failure ever will."
"Discomfort is the price of freedom."
"There's a difference between interest and commitment. When you're interested in doing something, you do it only when circumstances permit. When you're committed to something, you accept no excuses, just results."
Perfect for writers who
Feel stuck despite "trying hard"
Struggle with procrastination and self-sabotage
Want to finish their book but keep choosing other priorities
Need accountability strategies that actually work
Are tired of staying in their comfort zone
Resources Mentioned
Art's book: Demolish Your Comfort Zones
Art's website: artturock.com
Content Warning
Brief discussion of food and dieting from approximately 19:00-22:00.
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transcript
Anne Hawley: Hey writers, if you wonder why success eludes you, even though you feel like you're putting in the time and effort, this one's for you. Hello and welcome to the Write Anyway podcast. In today's episode, Sue speaks with Art Turok, the Comfort Zone demolition Expert.
Art is a longtime coach and successful speaker for top Fortune 500 companies, and if that weren't enough, he took up sprinting at age 55 with silver and bronze medals in Pentathlon at the USA Track and Field Masters Championship. Art knows how to take extreme accountability for achieving breakthrough results.
Just a small content warning. This interview contains discussion of food and dieting from about minute 19 through minute 22. We'll put in a little warning, but here is the conversation.
Sue Campbell: My friend Art Turok because I need somebody to help me talk to writers about discomfort and being uncomfortable and how necessary it is if you want any sort of writing life, much less other people to read your book. So welcome Art. I wanna tell a quick story of how you and I started talking to each other about this topic.
So I think we met in like 2019. Something like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 2020 , and you were in a cohort of people I was working with about book marketing. And then I found out your amazing background of being a speaker and a coach, and I was talking to you about how I was trying to start this accountability group for writers, and I couldn't figure out how to structure it so that I could really hold people accountable.
Right. And you were like, well, that's because you can't. You can't hold people accountable. And then you introduced me to these mind blowing questions that you use to invite people to be accountable rather than hold people accountable. So I would love if we could start there.
Art Turok: Mm-hmm.
Sue Campbell: And then move into talking about comfort zones.
Art Turok: Sure. Well, let's define the distinction. Mm-hmm. Holding people accountable so often is about administering consequences. It's about monitoring. Mm-hmm. It's about frequently interacting. It's about assuring that they have the qualifications. Good stuff. Yeah. When it comes down to the crucial difference, holding people accountable is something that's done to the coachee.
Inviting accountability, the coachee steers the way, and it comes through introspection. Sue, that's the key word. Mm-hmm. It's not being done to you-- hold accountable. It's you having the courage to introspect, to begin to look at how do I stop myself? What are my self-limiting beliefs? I call it guy on the couch comments.
Yeah. Woman on the sofa remarks. Yeah. You know, to give, give a little detachment if it's too personal. Yeah. But if you don't need any detachment, go full bore, be courageous and do the introspection. And the introspection will guide you into several places. It'll look at places like, um. What are the undermining behaviors I do?
Mm-hmm. What are the self-limiting beliefs that I keep generating? Here's the key, the colossal deception. What are the short term payoffs that I choose to accept? They're immediate, they're guaranteed, and I'm choosing that rather than the play for the long-term results that in my heart, I desire. And get your head around that, Sue.
Sue Campbell: Yeah. And that's really the crux of it, right? Yes. Because that's where the discomfort intersects. They're making those short-term choices because it is more comfortable. And if you made decisions that were in line with your long-term goal, that's very uncomfortable.
Art Turok: Precisely.
Sue Campbell: You might have to feel stupid 'cause you don't know how to do something.
You might have to feel like vulnerable because you're putting yourself out there and you know, exposing yourself to criticism and all of the things are very uncomfortable.
Art Turok: Yep.
Sue Campbell: So I know that you have a book that is just coming out. By the time people are hearing this podcast, uh, it will be available. So I wanna talk about some of the good stuff that's in your book.
So the book is called Demolish Your Comfort Zones: six unconventional practices to crush your hidden limitations. So knowing everything that's in the book are, what do you think is the the critical pieces for writers to understand about crushing their comfort zone?
Art Turok: What it's going to take is a willingness to be courageous, and I want them to reframe. This is, this is the crucial piece, Sue. Mm-hmm. Reframe their thinking about comfort zones. Okay. So bottom line, comfort kills more dreams than failure ever will. Yeah. Comfort stone Demolition is the springboard for a lifetime of transformation.
Whew. Hell of a way to start. Right?
Sue Campbell: Absolutely. And I think people can feel it when you say it, that that's really true. Oh, every time I pulled back was because I wanted to stay comfortable. 'cause I was scared. Yeah, right. And courage has like a really positive reputation where everybody uses like, oh, that's so courageous, and we forget that courage feels awful when you're exercising it.
Absolutely. Right. So, you know, a comfort zone is like a psychological state. Circumstances seem familiar. We engage in a limited set of behaviors. Mm-hmm. And there's no extraordinary effort or risk. Who wants to leave that? Right? And that's the deception You are selling out your freedom of choice. I repeat you are selling out your freedom of choice.
So I say, rather than step outside of your comfort zone, which sounds too gentle. Mm-hmm. Look at what's at stake. Mm-hmm. You need to demolish the sucker.
Yeah.
Art Turok: So that's what your writers need to hear. Discomfort is the price of freedom, but that hang in the rafters. Yeah.
Sue Campbell: It's so true. I, I talk to writers about it, like it's, there's a wall, right?
But if you're, if you're talking about something physical, there's this huge wall that you have to scale in front of you. Mm-hmm. And everything you say you want Yep. Is on the other side of that wall.
Art Turok: Yep.
Sue Campbell: And you don't want to go through the pain of climbing up that wall, scaling, trying to, you know, tuck your toes into every little crack.
Because you think it's gonna hurt, you might even fall down and have to start over again. But you, you will get over the wall and you'll be over there. There you go. Whereas if you stay on this side of the wall, you have the chronic suffering of knowing that you are not being courageous enough to go over the wall.
Art Turok: So well put. So well put. So otherwise, why not operate with a different mindset? Yeah. Look at fascination, intrigue, sense of adventure when you approach a comfort zone. That's the beauty here.
Sue Campbell: Yeah. So give us, uh, one or two tools that will help us destroy our comfort zones.
Art Turok: Well, I think the first one is, I don't know if I'd say first and foremost, but the ability to recognize commitment versus interest is right up at the top. And, uh, it's so up at the top that it appeared on a Starbucks cup. My quote,
Sue Campbell: I'm gonna read it for everybody. There's a difference between interest and commitment. When you're interested in doing something, you do it only when circumstances permit. When you're committed to something, you accept no excuses, just results.
Yeah, so that is Art's quote on a Starbucks cup.
Art Turok: Now the key is commitment. So I find commitment is a missing piece in many self-help programs.
Sue Campbell: Mm-hmm.
Art Turok: In many conventional performance improvement methods and lists. So I want people to look at commitment, and the key in commitment is mentally creating perceptions of value.
So you need to be creative in creating the sense of value. One place I begin is what are your passionate values? And in my book, I have a series of questions that help guide you to discover, create, conceive your passionate values. Interesting. We don't need help coming up with excuses, rationalizations, and self-limiting beliefs.
Those are. Flourishing in our culture. And Nate Fast. The USC professor uses the term blame contagion.
Sue Campbell: Mm.
Art Turok: So it is a social contagion that runs wild. And what I am a stand for is accountability contagion. It's spoken here and I want it to be in every conversation that I'm in. So that's one of the questions I want people to be asking themselves.
Are you committed or interested? Now, lemme make one other distinction here, and I would even edit my Starbucks cup quote. The editing would be no excuses, just results. I would say no excuses, just do the required actions to get results. Okay. So commitment doesn't guarantee an outcome? No. Yes. All you have control over is doing the actions that are required to achieve results and then take a look.
Yeah. And you may need the course correct before you get there. Yeah, so that would be a key piece is start making commitments and look at the value and really focus on, you know, what is the exciting piece to this? What do I resonate with? How can I change and develop? Um, my core values are freedom, courage.
Extraordinary. Mm-hmm. And I came out with this identity, this, this role of comfort zone demolition expert. Do you see how it chinks so well with the core values?
Sue Campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because you can't be free if you are beholden. That's right. To your comfort zone.
Art Turok: Yes. Yes. So I think that's a real key piece. Now, the other thing I.
You're asking for a couple of methods. Yeah. It's asking great questions of yourself when you take accountability for your mindset. So to give you an example, um, in my book, Andrea Fletcher, uh, met her, she was a writer. And you know, part-time she's doing other things, but she says, you know, I'd like to write children's books.
This was her vision and we kept looking at what she needed and I said, what is the immediate payoff do you gain by ignoring your scheduled writing time? Yeah. Yep. That ring Well, yep. With this audience. Yep. What is the immediate payoff you gain? So you'll see that my questions focus on looking at.
Short-term gain, long-term costs, that's where the rubber meets the road. The juxtaposition between those two makes all the difference. So that's the first coaching question. And Andrea said, uh, as the oldest child in my family of five children, as a mother, as a grandmother, as a teacher, as a counselor, which is where I met her, I am prone to take care of and nurture others.
Sue Campbell: Mm-hmm.
Art Turok: Sound like a comfort zone
Sue Campbell: for sure.
Art Turok: Yeah. There you go. Immediate payoff. Now, as we did coaching, I said to her, how does that work over time? What is the cost of continuing to follow that pattern of nurturance in terms of your book writing? So it's a nasty question because she, she has the look at the truth in the face.
It's not an easy truth to accept. This is why I keep talking about the courage to do introspection, and I'll harp on it over and over again. So, Andrea, I hit her with the jigs up question next, if nothing changes, what desired outcomes are unlikely or never going to happen?
Sue Campbell: Mm-hmm.
Art Turok: Moments after I said that, she says to me, I'm gonna have to trim the fat.
Sue Campbell: Yes,
Art Turok: I need to let go of doing things that aren't in alignment with my goals. I will focus on taking time for me and making my dreams happen. So you see in that swift coaching where you juxtapose short-term comfort and long-term cost. All of a sudden, people can make changes in their priorities that have existed for years, perhaps decades, and would've gone on for the rest of their lives.
Sue Campbell: Yes. And this particular example, I wanna dig into a little bit further because when it is a caretaking example.
Art Turok: I have
Sue Campbell: a lot of, um, clients and people in our audience who are caretakers either for aging parents or for children. Even for grown children. Right? Like new adult children.
Art Turok: Yep.
Sue Campbell: Um, and they are used to, um, people pleasing behaviors.
They get validation when they take good care of other people and they value the caretaking and they value the feeling they get from being that person who comes in to save the day. Right. And so a lot of people don't wanna let that go, and it's very, very powerful. So the second somebody knocks on their door with a need, they're gonna push their book aside and they're going to go do it.
Yep. So I find reframing of the kind of help you wanna give someone is really crucial, right? How can I be a model? For the people in my life, especially my children, how can I be a model of someone who lives their dreams, has the courage to live their dreams? It doesn't mean I'm abandoning my family when they need me, but I, it's not good for somebody to think that they can always pull somebody else away from their priorities.
That's not a healthy dynamic.
Art Turok: Nope.
Sue Campbell: You want your kid to be able to grow up and write a book. Right. Maybe you should be modeling for them how you can make that happen. Not in the perfect way, but in a realistic, it's all trade-offs and decisions in the moment, but I have to keep my long-term commitment in place and I have to move in alignment with that commitment.
Art Turok: Yes. Now, one of the things I want to be sure we get into play. Is the marketing book. Marketing piece. Yes. And I wanna share with you a personal story that made all the difference in my life how I overcame fear of rejection. Now, writers certainly face fear of rejection. In my case, it was telemarketing myself as a speaker.
Holy cow. So this is back in the days before the internet, you literally had to telemarket. And the product wasn't selling insurance, it was selling me Right. Art Turak as a speaker for your group. Oh wow. And, uh, I couldn't cop to the comfort zone of email. I. And let me tell you, I love public speaking. You can probably tell.
Mm-hmm. I hate telemarketing and hearing rejection, and it was my speaking skills that seemed to be rejected. So I had to figure out how am I gonna do it? And the real key was getting in touch with my passionate values. And so I said to myself, okay. What does speaking enable you to express your freedom, courage, and extraordinary, and it would be truly freeing If you could get off the butt and start doing telemarketing calls, I, it would be surely courageous.
And it would be an extraordinary accomplishment to do this. So I simply set myself a goal, and again, the key phrase is required actions. I said, I will do as many cold telemarketing calls as is necessary to get 15 meeting planners who say, huh, you might fit our program. Send your video demo tape. And there it was.
And I ended up speaking. To 125 Fortune 500 companies, that's, it's one of the higher totals in the speaking business. So it's the power of having your passionate values, knowing how to execute them, and also disbelieving that an additi initial trepidation is permanent. No.
Sue Campbell: Yes. That's really important. I wanna underscore that everyone thinks like, oh, the first time I do it, this is so painful.
I cannot possibly keep doing this. It's gonna be like this every single time. No, it's not. No it's not. No, it is going to get easier. Incrementally over time, or even by leaps and bounds, sometimes people will try this and they'll be like, oh, that was like so not a big deal. I was making so much more out of it in my head.
I had a client who wanted to go on podcasts and she had told herself a story about how podcasters are all mean, and they only wanna talk to people who already are, you know, bestselling authors. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And all of these things. And so she joined one of my programs. And all she did was pitch herself on podcasts.
And after the first one, she's like, I ended up talking to this person. Like I'd known them for 30 years.
Art Turok: Yeah.
Sue Campbell: Every single experience she had with podcasting was lovely. So sometimes it's way easier than you think. Yep. And even if it's not, it becomes easier every single time you do it.
Art Turok: That's it. That's it.
That's it. Yes. So, you know, I'm, I'm just thinking of, uh, my coaching with, with Ken Blanchard. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Sue Campbell: Bestselling author.
Art Turok: Bestselling author, Ken Blanchard. So Ken, great writer, but more challenged. And we met 40 years ago at a wellness conference. He was speaking, I was selling my book, getting Physical at a Stick With Your Exercise Program.
So it was a match made in heaven. As it turned out, I became his fitness coach and we've worked for decades. He lost 40 pounds over time, kept it off. Yeah. Wow. Now the large piece was this. What, what did Ken pick up on? You know, the book was called Getting Physical, how to Stick With Your Exercise Program.
He picked up on commitment versus interest, and so as I work with Ken nowadays, he's. So taken by being able to extend himself. Now, here's the trap and it's in the book, so I'm not exposing any personal information that mm-hmm. Ken is unaware of and he wrote the forward to my book. Mm-hmm. But what he noticed, his trap now is wanting to comply with the wishes of others, fit in with the family members, what they're eating.
I'll eat, I don't wanna stand out as eating healthy if they're eating. Fat consuming food and I want to fit in above all. And the two of us looked at it straight squarely and said, what's the long-term effect of this? And he began to realize, you know, I'm just gonna start putting on weight that I've lost.
Yeah. And it didn't work. We looked at what else do you aspire to in your life? And he said, I wanna live a long life. Have great time with my, my wife, Margie, and have great time with my grandchildren. Be a great-granddad. And the other thing is I'm not finished with contributing boldly to managing. In fact, he and I are gonna be talking tomorrow about his future.
In creating management innovation, here's a guy who crafted the latest book coming out will be in October. Martha Lawrence is the author Now, here's an interesting story. Martha, as an editor for Ken for years and years and years, changed her identity.
Sue Campbell: Mm-hmm.
Art Turok: She became an author, and there are four places where your listeners can watch that are potential hangups.
Your feelings. Mm-hmm. Am I feeling ready enough? Don't count on your feelings to support you, your circumstances. Are they conducive or unfavorable? No. You create your circumstances, feelings. Circumstances, past history. Do you have any evidence in the past that I can do this? No, it's not gonna work. And then identity.
And what's so exciting is Ken's editor for years is writing her first book and it's called Catch People Doing Something right? Ken's. Primary notion and contribution to the management world, the management innovations of Ken Blanchard. So she changed her identity and that's the beauty. And Ken has also changed his identity in our coaching to someone who can absolutely doesn't need to cave to family patterns.
He can stand out for himself in his eating, in his diet, in whatever he needs.
Sue Campbell: Yeah. This is something I see with writers a lot about the identity piece when you know, pages and platforms will go to writing conferences and we'll meet writers. We'll meet people coming up to the table and say, are you a writer?
And so many of them will say, well, I'm an aspiring writer, right? We always talk about that. That's why it's the entry level question. Mm-hmm. 'cause unless you identify as a writer, the chances of you actually writing are very, very slim.
Art Turok: Yeah.
Sue Campbell: You have to have that identity piece.
And also , it goes so well with the commitment versus interest. It's not, I'm interested in maybe becoming a writer or writing a book. It's like I'm a writer who's committed to finishing this project.
Art Turok: Yeah.
Sue Campbell: A very different set of actions available to you when you have the identity and the commitment piece.
Art Turok: Yes.
Identity guides choicefulness. So yes. You know, where did I come up with this? Look at some of my identities. Elite performance provocateur.
Sue Campbell: Mm-hmm.
Art Turok: For a previous book. Um, now demolish your comfort zones. Okay. Demolition. Coach, demolition expert, comfort zone, demolition expert. Let your identity fuel your writing and your marketing.
So choose it carefully. You bet. Now the other thing I wanna mention for sure, Sue, is your contribution to me as a writer. So do you remember, think way back. When you said to me, you've written four books, Art and you don't think of yourself as a writer.
Sue Campbell: Yes. You told me some BS about not thinking of yourself as a writer, and I was like haven't you published four books?
Art Turok: I know if you see how the identity is all made up, it's fabricated.
Sue Campbell: Yep.
Art Turok: So what was inconsistent for me is I've always delegated book organizing to developmental editors and I said, Hey, that was a good choice where I was traveling as a speaker, right. But now there's a pandemic.
I'm not on planes. I don't have that excuse anymore. Right. And, my wife and self-appointed life coach Haley called me out and she said, Art, you write blogs, but the book isn't getting written and it's time to treat writing as a job that you do professionally for designated hours every day.
And listen to what I said to her. I don't think I have the brain power to organize a book.
Sue Campbell: Madness. Madness.
Art Turok: I mean, my guy on the couch sounds like he's a neurologist.
And I say, Hey, uh, I leave the task of organizing my book to publishers and developmental editors. I wasn't willing to develop my capacity to collaborate with them. And, uh, what happened is Haley says, you submit disorganized copy, you're not gonna get a publisher to accept it to work with a developmental editor.
So I began checking around the internet and lo and behold, I did find a model that my brain could even accommodate and go, huh, that makes sense. I can make decisions about book organizing. And I did so. It was amazing. Now, the first week, Sue, I was like banging my head against the desk. This isn't coming, but as you just said moments ago, what may be frustrating at first starts to smooth out.
And that was it. I started making things happen. The organization started to happen, and I came to the conclusion I was ripping off my readers by bypassing the developmental work because I had new insights about connections between concepts. I was ripping 'em off.
Sue Campbell: Yes, a hundred percent. And, uh, we said this before we started recording today, so I wanna bring it into the discussion.
Working with thousands of writers, right? So we've had big events. We have a summit every year. I talk to hundreds of writers every single year. I've talked to thousands of writers since I've been doing this. I have never met a writer who lacked the brains or the talent to write a book. Mm. What I have met is a bunch of writers who've never been taught these mindset techniques on how to reframe their challenges so they can stop self-sabotaging.
Art Turok: Yeah.
Sue Campbell: That's the issue. Yeah. And that is exactly what your book helps people unpack and finally get over.
Art Turok: And the other piece I would say is empower your coach.
Sue Campbell: Yes.
Art Turok: So I empowered Haley as a coach dramatically that allowed me to take the plunge, do some of my own developmental editing, not assume I had a disability.
Right. And. Took it on and then capitalized with the pros as well. So, surprise, surprise, empower your coach.
Sue Campbell: Yes. And that's, again, you have to be willing to be uncomfortable to hear the tough love from your coach. Mm-hmm. So again, that's a comfort zone issue.
Art Turok: There you go. Yeah, there you go. So you know what's coming across between the two of us is the sheer freedom and empowerment that comes from comfort zone embracing,
Sue Campbell: yeah.
Art Turok: Or comfort zone demolition because again, you demolish and then that frees you up to express your capacity. So that's a more accurate terminology.
Sue Campbell: I love it. Well, Art Turok, thank you so much for being with us today. I know everyone is gonna be delighted to talk to you about these things and hear from you about these things, as I always am.
Art Turok: I wanted to save this as like my parting word.
Sue Campbell: Okay.
Art Turok: Okay. So here you go. Treat each day in your life as if you're writing your autobiography. Yep. I mean, pick an identity for your character, as Sue and I were just talking, that you want to carry into the autobiography.
What's the title of your autobiography? What are the signature stories that are gonna be in your autobiography? What are the major life lessons you're gonna share? What are the comfort zones you demolished at major turning points, and what's the impact you're gonna have as a writer? And express it boldly.
I. What a great way to approach comfort zones. What a great way to live life and use as a basis of your choices.
Sue Campbell: I love it. It's the story you tell yourself. That's the book I'm working on right now, Art, right? It's the story that you tell yourself. So write your triumph story.
I love it. I love the compatibility between us and two great brains working in unison
to help writers. We're here to help you.
Art Turok: There you go.
Sue Campbell: Thank you so much, art. Take care. Thanks for being here.
Art Turok: Will do.
Anne Hawley: Art Turock's new book, Demolish Your Comfort Zones, is available now wherever you get your books. You can learn more about Art's coaching at artturock.com.
And if you'd like a weekly dose of writing insight and mindset and marketing tips in your inbox, subscribe to the Write Anyway newsletter at pagesandplatforms.com/subscribe.
And that's it for this episode of the Write Anyway podcast. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.